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	<title>Comments for Focus Foundry</title>
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	<description>Ideas forged for maximized living.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 06:04:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on The Relationship Between Philosophy and Science by TomL</title>
		<link>http://www.focusfoundry.com/?p=15&#038;cpage=1#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>TomL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:50:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.focusfoundry.com/the-relationship-between-philosophy-and-science/#comment-34</guid>
		<description>It suddenly hit me the nature of your problem.  You are equivocating "existence" with "proof".  Existence exists apart from consciousness, but proof does not.  "Proof" presupposes a consciousness capable of grasping it.  Further, any "definition" of a fact of physical science is merely a statement of relationship between that fact of reality and other facts of reality, and the relationship itself is an abstraction invented by man.

For example, the acceleration due to gravity is a physical reality.  Its definition of "9.8 m/sec/sec" is not.  The actual physical law is expressed in terms of of a measurement of distance and time, and the measurement itself is invented by man.  A meter does not exist as such in reality, nor does a second.  Only distance and time exist as such; the actual units of them are abstractions created by men.  The physical property of gravity itself is not expressed, but the acceleration due to it is measured in terms of already established abstractions to form an abstraction description of what gravity is.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It suddenly hit me the nature of your problem.  You are equivocating &#8220;existence&#8221; with &#8220;proof&#8221;.  Existence exists apart from consciousness, but proof does not.  &#8220;Proof&#8221; presupposes a consciousness capable of grasping it.  Further, any &#8220;definition&#8221; of a fact of physical science is merely a statement of relationship between that fact of reality and other facts of reality, and the relationship itself is an abstraction invented by man.</p>
<p>For example, the acceleration due to gravity is a physical reality.  Its definition of &#8220;9.8 m/sec/sec&#8221; is not.  The actual physical law is expressed in terms of of a measurement of distance and time, and the measurement itself is invented by man.  A meter does not exist as such in reality, nor does a second.  Only distance and time exist as such; the actual units of them are abstractions created by men.  The physical property of gravity itself is not expressed, but the acceleration due to it is measured in terms of already established abstractions to form an abstraction description of what gravity is.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Relationship Between Philosophy and Science by TomL</title>
		<link>http://www.focusfoundry.com/?p=15&#038;cpage=1#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator>TomL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2005 19:38:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.focusfoundry.com/the-relationship-between-philosophy-and-science/#comment-33</guid>
		<description>Proof exists.  That very statement is philosophic in nature, not scientific (it is an application of the axiom of existence).  Ignore it all you like, but philosophy is presupposed by all science and all knowledge.

In order to state that "proof exists", you must first presuppose that anything can exist, that existence is apart from consciousness, that consciousness is the means by which we perceive the universe, and that something is knowable to that consciousness.  You must first acknolwedge what proof &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt;, and it involves consciousness.

The similiarity between geometry and rhethoric exists because geometry is an invention of man -- it does not exist in the universe as such.  It is a mental construct just as much as rhetoric is.  There is a reason that many physical laws involve integers and whole exponents, and the reason is that science is based on the same premises -- premises such as the axiom of existence and the law of identity (which are the basis for all arithmetic).  The only difference is that physical science uses arithmetic to measure the physical world, whereas rhetoric is used to describe abstractions and concepts of consciousness, which have no physical existence and cannot be physically measured.  

But if you study epistemology it will become clear to you that the process of human conceptualization is itself an arithmetic one, and that the way in which abstractions are formed is by setting aside measurements in order to classify groups of existence into a concept.

The problem with your argument is that you wish to set consciousness aside when discussing "proof" and say that proof exists outside of consciousness -- which is ridiculous.  The very word "proof" presupposes a consciousness capable of grasping the evidence, and that means that the relationship between existence and consciousness -- clearly the realm of philosophy -- is necessarily antecedant to any idea of "proof".
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Proof exists.  That very statement is philosophic in nature, not scientific (it is an application of the axiom of existence).  Ignore it all you like, but philosophy is presupposed by all science and all knowledge.</p>
<p>In order to state that &#8220;proof exists&#8221;, you must first presuppose that anything can exist, that existence is apart from consciousness, that consciousness is the means by which we perceive the universe, and that something is knowable to that consciousness.  You must first acknolwedge what proof <em>is</em>, and it involves consciousness.</p>
<p>The similiarity between geometry and rhethoric exists because geometry is an invention of man &#8212; it does not exist in the universe as such.  It is a mental construct just as much as rhetoric is.  There is a reason that many physical laws involve integers and whole exponents, and the reason is that science is based on the same premises &#8212; premises such as the axiom of existence and the law of identity (which are the basis for all arithmetic).  The only difference is that physical science uses arithmetic to measure the physical world, whereas rhetoric is used to describe abstractions and concepts of consciousness, which have no physical existence and cannot be physically measured.  </p>
<p>But if you study epistemology it will become clear to you that the process of human conceptualization is itself an arithmetic one, and that the way in which abstractions are formed is by setting aside measurements in order to classify groups of existence into a concept.</p>
<p>The problem with your argument is that you wish to set consciousness aside when discussing &#8220;proof&#8221; and say that proof exists outside of consciousness &#8212; which is ridiculous.  The very word &#8220;proof&#8221; presupposes a consciousness capable of grasping the evidence, and that means that the relationship between existence and consciousness &#8212; clearly the realm of philosophy &#8212; is necessarily antecedant to any idea of &#8220;proof&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Relationship Between Philosophy and Science by anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.focusfoundry.com/?p=15&#038;cpage=1#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2005 18:15:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.focusfoundry.com/the-relationship-between-philosophy-and-science/#comment-32</guid>
		<description>Your thought on this subject needs some work. Take for example:

"As far as proof, science alone cannot prove anything. The concept of proof itself rests upon the foundation of an array of philosophic conclusions, such as consciousness and the fact that knowledge of the truth is possible. Without philosophy, there could be no such thing as â€œproofâ€, and science would have no purpose."

Something cannot exist in a vaccuum. In order for philosophy to explain the rules of proof, proofs must exist. When Aristotle started, he noticed that geometry and rhetoric had something in common. He explained this commonality in order the others would be able to act in a consistent manner. This is the nature of proving proof. Proofs have, and will always exist were there are philosophers to explain why they work. 

They must, in fact, exist, otherwise there would be no way for philosophy to describe them. The problem in your argument is that it is platonic in nature. You take proof as something special that exists only when a philosopher is able to tap into it. You have ignored the historical events leading up to a consistent set of rules to explain which proofs are valid and which are not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your thought on this subject needs some work. Take for example:</p>
<p>&#8220;As far as proof, science alone cannot prove anything. The concept of proof itself rests upon the foundation of an array of philosophic conclusions, such as consciousness and the fact that knowledge of the truth is possible. Without philosophy, there could be no such thing as â€œproofâ€, and science would have no purpose.&#8221;</p>
<p>Something cannot exist in a vaccuum. In order for philosophy to explain the rules of proof, proofs must exist. When Aristotle started, he noticed that geometry and rhetoric had something in common. He explained this commonality in order the others would be able to act in a consistent manner. This is the nature of proving proof. Proofs have, and will always exist were there are philosophers to explain why they work. </p>
<p>They must, in fact, exist, otherwise there would be no way for philosophy to describe them. The problem in your argument is that it is platonic in nature. You take proof as something special that exists only when a philosopher is able to tap into it. You have ignored the historical events leading up to a consistent set of rules to explain which proofs are valid and which are not.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Introspection, Part 1 by Focus Foundry  &#187; Blog Archive   &#187; The Morality of Sex with the Ideal Partner</title>
		<link>http://www.focusfoundry.com/?p=8&#038;cpage=1#comment-16</link>
		<dc:creator>Focus Foundry  &#187; Blog Archive   &#187; The Morality of Sex with the Ideal Partner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Aug 2005 05:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.focusfoundry.com/?p=8#comment-16</guid>
		<description>[...] ing the nature of emotions.  That is again beyond the scope of this article.  My series on Introspection may help those who do not agree that there can be no emotion without prior knowle [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ing the nature of emotions.  That is again beyond the scope of this article.  My series on Introspection may help those who do not agree that there can be no emotion without prior knowle [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Everyone Uses Some Good Philosophy (Including You!) by Cole Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.focusfoundry.com/?p=12&#038;cpage=1#comment-15</link>
		<dc:creator>Cole Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jul 2005 07:39:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.focusfoundry.com/everyone-uses-some-good-philosophy-including-you/#comment-15</guid>
		<description>Thank you for writing this. It is my new online reference for people who express apathy towards philosophy or the attitude that morality is boring and otherworldly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for writing this. It is my new online reference for people who express apathy towards philosophy or the attitude that morality is boring and otherworldly.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Introspection, Part 1 by Focus Foundry  &#187; Blog Archive   &#187; Everyone Uses Some Good Philosophy (Including You!)</title>
		<link>http://www.focusfoundry.com/?p=8&#038;cpage=1#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>Focus Foundry  &#187; Blog Archive   &#187; Everyone Uses Some Good Philosophy (Including You!)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.focusfoundry.com/?p=8#comment-14</guid>
		<description>[...] ess, what things would prevent you from doing them?  Think to yourself about what is good, introspect on it, and then you&#8217;ll easily be able to identify what is bad.  You&#8217;ll t [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ess, what things would prevent you from doing them?  Think to yourself about what is good, introspect on it, and then you&#8217;ll easily be able to identify what is bad.  You&#8217;ll t [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on All Relationships are Politics by Reclaim Your Brain &#187; Check it Out: Think Dammit</title>
		<link>http://www.focusfoundry.com/?p=9&#038;cpage=1#comment-13</link>
		<dc:creator>Reclaim Your Brain &#187; Check it Out: Think Dammit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jun 2005 03:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.focusfoundry.com/all-relationships-are-politics/#comment-13</guid>
		<description>[...] le on something I&#8217;ve been saying for years (though not so elloquently perhaps), that all relationships are political. Politics is the name for that special dynamic betwee [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] le on something I&#8217;ve been saying for years (though not so elloquently perhaps), that all relationships are political. Politics is the name for that special dynamic betwee [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on All Relationships are Politics by TomL</title>
		<link>http://www.focusfoundry.com/?p=9&#038;cpage=1#comment-12</link>
		<dc:creator>TomL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jun 2005 06:45:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.focusfoundry.com/all-relationships-are-politics/#comment-12</guid>
		<description>Ryan -- See Virtue of Selfishness pb 31.  Also: introspect.  Do you not feel something more to know that your beloved loves you for who you are?  How else can you obtain that same feeling?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan &#8212; See Virtue of Selfishness pb 31.  Also: introspect.  Do you not feel something more to know that your beloved loves you for who you are?  How else can you obtain that same feeling?</p>
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		<title>Comment on All Relationships are Politics by ryanjensen</title>
		<link>http://www.focusfoundry.com/?p=9&#038;cpage=1#comment-11</link>
		<dc:creator>ryanjensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jun 2005 06:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.focusfoundry.com/all-relationships-are-politics/#comment-11</guid>
		<description>Not sure I agree with you on what is traded in a romantic relationship.  Love is not "giveable" as a value, only what one feels about another.  I think romantic relationships are simply a more personal and intense extension of a friendship.  In a romantic relationship, the same values that friends receive from each other are amplified -- such as enjoyment of each others' company -- and others are added -- such as physical pleasure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure I agree with you on what is traded in a romantic relationship.  Love is not &#8220;giveable&#8221; as a value, only what one feels about another.  I think romantic relationships are simply a more personal and intense extension of a friendship.  In a romantic relationship, the same values that friends receive from each other are amplified &#8212; such as enjoyment of each others&#8217; company &#8212; and others are added &#8212; such as physical pleasure.</p>
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		<title>Comment on All Relationships are Politics by redfarmer</title>
		<link>http://www.focusfoundry.com/?p=9&#038;cpage=1#comment-10</link>
		<dc:creator>redfarmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jun 2005 21:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.focusfoundry.com/all-relationships-are-politics/#comment-10</guid>
		<description>Wow I had never thought of the branch of philosophy known as politics in that way before. Part of the problem can be traced to the fact that, in common usage, the term "politics" and its derivatives are used almost exclusively to refer to government and its functions.

Good article Tom! I liked your series on introspection, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow I had never thought of the branch of philosophy known as politics in that way before. Part of the problem can be traced to the fact that, in common usage, the term &#8220;politics&#8221; and its derivatives are used almost exclusively to refer to government and its functions.</p>
<p>Good article Tom! I liked your series on introspection, too.</p>
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